Gossip in Noahide Law - Revision history

Yeshol: /* Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah) */

2007-09-20T11:25:38Z

‎Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)

Yeshol: /* Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah) */

2007-09-20T11:24:06Z

‎Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)

WikSysop at 12:58, 27 February 2007

2007-02-27T12:58:29Z

WikSysop: /* Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah) */

2007-02-27T12:45:43Z

‎Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)

WikSysop at 13:41, 31 January 2007

2007-01-31T13:41:38Z

WikSysop at 21:51, 3 January 2007

2007-01-03T21:51:34Z

WikSysop: /* Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah) */

2007-01-03T21:49:59Z

‎Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)

WikSysop: ordered by seven laws

2007-01-03T21:42:59Z

ordered by seven laws

Show changes

WikSysop: added Rabbi Hollander's opinion

2007-01-03T21:38:18Z

added Rabbi Hollander's opinion

WikSysop: /* Rabbi Bernard Fox */

2007-01-01T20:29:02Z

‎Rabbi Bernard Fox

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 The prohibition is based on Leviticus 19:16, in the context of regulations about relations between people [verses16-18].  In this chapter, the phrase "the congregation of the children of Israel" is used several times. In Exodus 16 and 17 this phrase is used when people were complaining. In Exodus 35 in connection with the bringing of contributions for the Tabernacle; in Leviticus 16 – with respect to atonement; in Numbers 1 with regard to the physical arrangement of the Israelite camp in the wilderness; in chapter 8 – the separation of the Levite tribe from the rest of the children of Israel; in chapters 13 and 14 in connection with the sin of the spies, and those who followed them; in chapter 15 with respect to atonement [according to halachic tradition – for Idolatry]. From the context:  verse 3 "and keep my Sabbaths" it seems clear that this is not meant to apply to non-Jews. So it does not appear to be directed to non-Jews.  This prohibiton is NOT in the list of sixty-six commandments of Bnei Noah compiled by the contemporary Rabbi A. Lichtenstein.
-The fact that verses 16, 17 and 18 uses the words "among thy people", "thy neighbour", "thy brother", "children of thy people" it is clear that Noahides are not subject to these commandements.
+The fact that verses 16, 17 and 18 uses the words "among thy people", "thy neighbor", "thy brother", "children of thy people" it is clear that Noahides are not subject to these commandments.
 However, we see that the Torah views the various types of ill-talk about members of one's community as having a bad result to the community. Thus it seems it would be wise that Noahide communities adapt them – for the benefit of the community.

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 ==Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)==
 [[Image:BDBN.gif|right]]
-'''Voluntary.''' In English there are so many terms for talking badly about another person (Gossip, slander, libel, defamation, vilification). Slander is writing or publishing in print. Libel, but the language does not differentiate between defamation by true statements and by false statements.   In Jewish law we differentialte between gossip = telling people about what other people said about them [or theirs] and is called ''rechilus'', true tale-bearing [telling bad but true things about people] is called ''loshon hara'', and false tale-bearing: [telling untrue bad things about people] is called ''motzei shem ra''.
+'''Voluntary.''' In English there are so many terms for talking badly about another person (Gossip, slander, libel, defamation, vilification). Slander is writing or publishing Libel in print, but English does not differentiate between defamation by true statements and by false statements.   In Jewish law we differentiate between: 1. gossip = telling people about what other people said about them [or theirs] and is called ''rechilus'', 2. true tale-bearing [telling bad but true things about people] is called ''loshon hara'', and 3. false tale-bearing: [telling untrue bad things about people] is called ''motzei shem ra''.
-For Jews this is considered a serious offence. In many circles there are publc lessons given about these offences.  In general ''rechilus'', ''loshon hara'', ''motzei shem ra'', are absolutely forbidden, except in a few limited cases.  Jewish law details the rules and circumstances in which one may tell about bad acts of someone, for instance: a witness must testify in court. Warning about suspicions is allowed in certain instances. The difference between telling and warning is simple: When you warn you say "Look out, on the basis of these facts, I warn you that this person may do harm! ". Telling is saying: "This person has done X". The statement "This person intends to do the bad X" is ascribing evil to someone, and is Halachically very risky. In most cases it is prohibited. The warning must be something like: "I have personal knowledge [or: see fro yourself] that this person is saying [or doing] what people say [or do] when they have bad intentions, as so-and-so have said [or done] in previous situations and then followed the saying with bad actions."
+For Jews this these offences are considered serious. In many circles there are public lessons given about these offences.  In general ''rechilus'', ''loshon hara'', ''motzei shem ra'', are absolutely forbidden, except in a few limited cases.  Jewish law details the rules and circumstances in which one may tell about bad acts of someone, for instance: a witness must testify in court. Warning about suspicions is allowed in certain instances. The difference between telling and warning is simple: When you warn you say "Look out, on the basis of these facts, I warn you that this person may do harm! ". Telling is saying: "This person has done X". The statement "This person intends to do the bad X" is ascribing evil to someone, and is Halachically very risky. In most cases it is prohibited. The warning must be something like: "I have personal knowledge [or: see for yourself] that this person is saying [or doing] what people say [or do] when they have bad intentions, as so-and-so have said [or done] in previous situations and then followed the saying with bad actions."
 The prohibition is based on Leviticus 19:16, in the context of regulations about relations between people [verses16-18].  In this chapter, the phrase "the congregation of the children of Israel" is used several times. In Exodus 16 and 17 this phrase is used when people were complaining. In Exodus 35 in connection with the bringing of contributions for the Tabernacle; in Leviticus 16 – with respect to atonement; in Numbers 1 with regard to the physical arrangement of the Israelite camp in the wilderness; in chapter 8 – the separation of the Levite tribe from the rest of the children of Israel; in chapters 13 and 14 in connection with the sin of the spies, and those who followed them; in chapter 15 with respect to atonement [according to halachic tradition – for Idolatry]. From the context:  verse 3 "and keep my Sabbaths" it seems clear that this is not meant to apply to non-Jews. So it does not appear to be directed to non-Jews.  This prohibiton is NOT in the list of sixty-six commandments of Bnei Noah compiled by the contemporary Rabbi A. Lichtenstein.
-The fact that verses 16, 17 and 18 uses the words "among thy people", "thy neighbour", "thy brother""children of thy people" it is clear that Noahides are not subject to these commandements.
+The fact that verses 16, 17 and 18 uses the words "among thy people", "thy neighbour", "thy brother", "children of thy people" it is clear that Noahides are not subject to these commandements.
-However, It would be wise that Noahide communities adapt them – for the benefit of the community.
+However, we see that the Torah views the various types of ill-talk about members of one's community as having a bad result to the community. Thus it seems it would be wise that Noahide communities adapt them – for the benefit of the community.
 ==References==

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:58, 27 February 2007
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	[[Category:Legal Rulings]]		[[Category:Legal Rulings]]
		+	[[Category:Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah]]

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 ==Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander (Jerusalem Court for Bnei Noah)==
+[[Image:BDBN.gif|right]]
 '''Voluntary.''' In English there are so many terms for talking badly about another person (Gossip, slander, libel, defamation, vilification). Slander is writing or publishing in print. Libel, but the language does not differentiate between defamation by true statements and by false statements.   In Jewish law we differentialte between gossip = telling people about what other people said about them [or theirs] and is called ''rechilus'', true tale-bearing [telling bad but true things about people] is called ''loshon hara'', and false tale-bearing: [telling untrue bad things about people] is called ''motzei shem ra''.

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:41, 31 January 2007
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	==References==		==References==
	<references/>		<references/>
		+
		+	[[Category:Legal Rulings]]

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 An anonymous Bnei Noach wrote on a maillist a while back: "''lashon hara'' is the one thing that will also keep us from having any community among B'nei Noach.  And we do need community.  In my mind I will elevate ''lashon hara'' to a position of evil somewhere near murder and robbery, because G-d will not help us if we refuse to speak with love, encouragement and kindness towards one another, within hearing, and beyond hearing."
-Speaking gossip, slander, etc. is obviously damaging to the Bnei Noach community. But is it prohibited? And if so exactly how and in what manner is prohibited?  Below are a collection of thoughts on the subject.
+Speaking gossip, slander, etc. is obviously damaging to the Bnei Noach community. But is it prohibited? And if so exactly how and in what manner is prohibited?  Below are a collection of thoughts on the subject.  The list is ordered according to the [[The Seven Laws|seven laws]].
 ==Rabbi Yirmeyahu Bindman ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:38, 3 January 2007
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	'''Justice.''' Noachides must ensure that they protect the rights of others, be they Jew, Gentile or Noachide. This protection comes from their acceptance of the law to establish courts of justice. A Noahcide should avoide insulting or damaging a person's reputation in public. Care should be taken not to repeat gossip which could be damaging to another. Concerns should always be taken up with the person concerned and never spoken about behind their back.<ref>[http://us.geocities.com/the_uk_ark/living-the-seven-laws/understanding/rights-of-others.html The Uk Ark]</ref>		'''Justice.''' Noachides must ensure that they protect the rights of others, be they Jew, Gentile or Noachide. This protection comes from their acceptance of the law to establish courts of justice. A Noahcide should avoide insulting or damaging a person's reputation in public. Care should be taken not to repeat gossip which could be damaging to another. Concerns should always be taken up with the person concerned and never spoken about behind their back.<ref>[http://us.geocities.com/the_uk_ark/living-the-seven-laws/understanding/rights-of-others.html The Uk Ark]</ref>

		+	==Rabbi Yeshayahu [Julius] HaKohen Hollander==
		+
		+	'''Voluntary.''' In English there are so many terms for talking badly about another person (Gossip, slander, libel, defamation, vilification). Slander is writing or publishing in print. Libel, but the language does not differentiate between defamation by true statements and by false statements. In Jewish law we differentialte between gossip = telling people about what other people said about them [or theirs] and is called ''rechilus'', true tale-bearing [telling bad but true things about people] is called ''loshon hara'', and false tale-bearing: [telling untrue bad things about people] is called ''motzei shem ra''.
		+
		+	For Jews this is considered a serious offence. In many circles there are publc lessons given about these offences. In general rechilus, loshon hara, motzei shem ra, are absolutely forbidden, except in a few limited cases. Jewish law details the rules and circumstances in which one may tell about bad acts of someone, for instance: a witness must testify in court. Warning about suspicions is allowed in certain instances. The difference between telling and warning is simple: When you warn you say "Look out, on the basis of these facts, I warn you that this person may do harm! ". Telling is saying: "This person has done X". The statement "This person intends to do the bad X" is ascribing evil to someone, and is Halachically very risky. In most cases it is prohibited. The warning must be something like: "I have personal knowledge [or: see fro yourself] that this person is saying [or doing] what people say [or do] when they have bad intentions, as so-and-so have said [or done] in previous situations and then followed the saying with bad actions."
		+
		+	The prohibition is based on Leviticus 19:16, in the context of regulations about relations between people [verses16-18]. In this chapter, the phrase "the congregation of the children of Israel" is used several times. In Exodus 16 and 17 this phrase is used when people were complaining. In Exodus 35 in connection with the bringing of contributions for the Tabernacle; in Leviticus 16 – with respect to atonement; in Numbers 1 with regard to the physical arrangement of the Israelite camp in the wilderness; in chapter 8 – the separation of the Levite tribe from the rest of the children of Israel; in chapters 13 and 14 in connection with the sin of the spies, and those who followed them; in chapter 15 with respect to atonement [according to halachic tradition – for Idolatry]. From the context: verse 3 "and keep my Sabbaths" it seems clear that this is not meant to apply to non-Jews. So it does not appear to be directed to non-Jews. This prohibiton is NOT in the list of sixty-six commandments of Bnei Noah compiled by the contemporary Rabbi A. Lichtenstein.
		+
		+	The fact that verses 16, 17 and 18 uses the words "among thy people", "thy neighbour", "thy brother""children of thy people" it is clear that Noahides are not subject to these commandements.
		+
		+	However, It would be wise that Noahide communities adapt them – for the benefit of the community.
		+
	==Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen Hazon==		==Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen Hazon==

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 '''Murder.''' Maimonides in his code of Halacha – the Mishne Torah – in Hilchot Dey’ot explains that lashon hara is one type of prohibited speech.  It is not the only form or speech about others that is prohibited.  There are three types of speech that are prohibited.  The first is rechilut.  This is gossip.  It need not be negative.  It is merely the act of discussing someone’s affairs with a third party.  Lashon hara is a special case of rechilut.  It is negative gossip – speaking in a disparaging manner about someone.  However, there is one interesting qualification that must be met.  Lashon hara involves imparting disparaging information that is true.  Lashon hara does not include making up outright lies.  Spreading disparaging, false rumors is motzi shem ra. In short, gossip is rechilut; lashon hara is speaking about someone in a disparaging manner – albeit that the statement is true.  Spreading false, disparaging rumors is motzi shem ra.<ref>Rabbaynu Moshe ben Maimon (Rambam / Maimonides) Mishne Torah, Hilchot Dey’ot 7:1-2.</ref> We can now identify the mitzvah violated by lashon hara.  According to Maimonides no mitzvah specifically prohibits lashon hara.  Instead, the Torah prohibits rechilut and this includes the special case of lashon hara.
-Nachmanides disagrees with Maimonides.  He insists that there is a specific mitzvah prohibiting lashon hara.  It is derived from our parasha and the Torah’s latter admonition – in Sefer Devarim – to guard ourselves from tzara’at and to remember this experience of Miryam. Nachmanides argues that our Sages regarded lashon hara as a serious sin.  They went so far as to compare lashon hara to the spilling of blood.<ref>Mesechet Erechim 15b.</ref>  It is incomprehensible that there is no specific command prohibiting the behavior!  He adds that the Torah prescribes a very serious punishment to lashon hara – tzara’at.  We would expect that this serious consequence would be in response to the violation of a specific commandment.  Based on these considerations, Nachmanides argues that lashon hara is prohibited by a specific commandment.  It is either a negative commandment communicated in the admonition to avoid tzara’at or a positive command contained in the admonition to remember the experience of Miryam.<ref>Rabbaynu Moshe ben Nachman (Ramban / Nachmanides), Commentary on Sefer Devarim  24:9.</ref>
+Nachmanides disagrees with Maimonides.  He insists that there is a specific mitzvah prohibiting lashon hara.  It is derived from our parasha (Behalotecha) and the Torah’s latter admonition – in Sefer Devarim – to guard ourselves from tzara’at and to remember this experience of Miryam. Nachmanides argues that our Sages regarded lashon hara as a serious sin.  They went so far as to compare lashon hara to the spilling of blood.<ref>Mesechet Erechim 15b.</ref>  It is incomprehensible that there is no specific command prohibiting the behavior!  He adds that the Torah prescribes a very serious punishment to lashon hara – tzara’at.  We would expect that this serious consequence would be in response to the violation of a specific commandment.  Based on these considerations, Nachmanides argues that lashon hara is prohibited by a specific commandment.  It is either a negative commandment communicated in the admonition to avoid tzara’at or a positive command contained in the admonition to remember the experience of Miryam.<ref>Rabbaynu Moshe ben Nachman (Ramban / Nachmanides), Commentary on Sefer Devarim 24:9.</ref>
-In summary, Maimonides and Nachmanides agree that lashon hara is prohibited.  However, according to Maimonides, it is included in the general mitzvah prohibiting gossip.  Nachmanides insists that there is a separate mitzvah that specifically prohibits lashon hara.
+In summary, Maimonides and Nachmanides agree that lashon hara is prohibited.  However, according to Maimonides, it is included in the general mitzvah prohibiting gossip.  Nachmanides insists that there is a separate mitzvah that specifically prohibits lashon hara. More...<ref>[http://www.mesora.org/RabbiFox/BeHalotecha64.htm Mesora.org]</ref>
 ==References==
 <references/>